Holzer/Meyers Investigation, January 13, 1977

The following was transcribed from audio recordings during Hans Holzer’s investigation of 112 Ocean Avenue with deep-trance medium, Ethel Johnson Meyers.

Hans Holzer: Ethel, what are your first impressions of this house?

Ethel Johnson Meyers: I’m getting an odor.

HH: What’s the odor from?

EM: I don’t know my head’s cracked.

HH: Head’s cracked? Who’s head?

EM: Mine, at the moment…I have to get used to the cold for a moment.

HH: All right. Are you comfortable?

EM: Reasonably.

HH: Where do you think is the center of the activities you feel?

EM: Let me relax a little more because I have two shocks and I want to see where they lead to.

HH: Okay…

EM: Right up here.

HH: We are on the third floor, the top floor of the house. The house is without heat. It’s empty and boarded up. This is the corner bedroom.

EM: You have a lot of Indians – burial ground here. Hmmpf. I feel as if I’m choked.

HH: Is there any connection of that with the house?

EM: I’ll say.

HH: What connection?

EM: Whoever lives here is going to be victim of all the anger – its blind fierceness.

HH: Whose anger is it?

EM: The Indians.

HH: Any particular one?

EM: Secret. Seems to be one with a lot of feathers around, too.

HH: How far back are you going?

EM: There’s one without any feathers at all, and kind of rough dress. And a long jaw.

HH: Is this a long time ago?

EM: The burial ground, yes. But they still linger.

HH: Why are they angry?

EM: Because this has been a sacred place – and this [house] is over a very, very special chief’s tomb.

HH: Do you sense them present in person or do you see it as an imprint?

EM: I sense the one present, not an imprint.

HH: An entity?

EM: The one with the slung jaw.

HH: Is he aware of you?

EM: Sure is. He’s giving me a bad time.

HH: Would you try to tell them that we are respectful of their tradition and will do everything to satisfy them.

EM: That is what (somebody) is saying. They understand.

HH: [Tell them] that we’re not hostile – that we have come to make things right. Not to be angry at us.

EM: Somehow a white person got to digging around and doing things and might have dug up a skeleton.

HH: Who got at the skeleton?

EM: A long time ago and the white man is a heinous evil devil. My whole head is aching like mad – not because of the cold but…

HH: I understand. Now, did they have any contact with any one living in this house?

EM: I’ll say.

HH: What exactly happened?

EM: Everything happens in here. When they are very mad everybody goes crazy. Somebody strangled somebody here? Because my throat seems to be closing.

HH: Why did they do that?

EM: The whole atmosphere – people get to fighting with each other because they don’t know why. They’re driven to it because they are taken over by the one with the long jaw.

HH: And what does he make them do?

EM: Fight and bang up each other.

HH: Has he in fact done that to anyone in the house?

EM: Yes.

HH: How long ago?

EM: I think it’s been more than one. Strange things happen.

HH: What sort of things happen?

EM: Violence and death – my skull is cracked and my neck is stretched.

HH: And how was this accomplished? In other words, who did it?

EM: The Indian force takes over a…that which…um, I can’t even talk.

HH: The Indian force takes over…what?

EM: A psychic nature or a tender nervous system of an individual – usually a male.

HH: What will the male do under those circumstances?

EM: Anything the Indian desires him to do.

HH: What did this Indian desire?

EM: My whole face seems to be battered in and my neck seems to be stretched. I can’t get away from that.

HH: What would that indicate?

EM: I might have been hung.

HH: Did this Indian take over any male in this house?

EM: I would say so…yes.

HH: What sort of male was taken over in this house? What kind of person?

EM: A catalyst that could be used. I have to be a little quieter to get at that. I’m so high-strung at the moment – I don’t know whether I’m the person doing it or the person being done to. I think I’m the person being done to.

HH: Is there a presence in this house other than the Indians?

EM: Yes.

HH: Who would that be?

EM: I think it’s this person.

HH: Would you like to sit down somewhere?

EM: For a moment.

HH: We can arrange it. There are some pillows in here. Now how long ago did all this take place?

EM: Is there an Emma or Emily?

HH: I don’t know. Do you sense such a person in the living or in spirit?

EM: Somebody just screamed that.

HH: How long ago did this happen?

EM: There is so much time being thrown around here – like the ancient burial ground and the ghost of this…of this Indian with the feather, the great chief.

HH: Ask your people what tribe the Indian belonged to.

EM: Swanee…

HH: Now what exactly took place in this house? Can you get anything on the events themselves?

EM: Was there also a child here?

HH: How old is the child?

EM: Young. Hard to…right here.

HH: What does she look like?

EM: Good looking.

HH: Is she alive or dead?

EM: I don’t think she’s alive.

HH: Can you get her name?

EM: Not at the moment.

HH: Why is she here?

EM: A man with darker hair. Dark hair and eyebrows.

HH: How old is he?

EM: Youngish also, not an old man.

HH: Do you get anything about him – his name, his connection?

EM: He looks as if he might be a part of the Indian that does that – the Indian that takes over.

HH: Did the Indian take over the man? Is that what you are saying? Why is he taking over this man?

EM: To commit a foul deed.

HH: Who is planning the deed?

EM: That Indian with the feathers is frantic because of his scalp being made a toy of.

HH: His skeleton?

EM: Yeah, but they didn’t do it. It was a long, long time ago. But every white man is a bad man, must be destroyed. And it’s not always everybody that they can control. This is a catalyst they can control.

HH: Why can they control this particular one?

EM: I said he was a catalyst.

HH: Do you mean he was psychic?

EM: Yes. He might not have known it but a lot of people are psychic and don’t know it and are subject to…

HH: What did this catalyst then do in this house?

EM: I would say he destroyed this woman.

HH: Can you tell me more what this person did once he was taken over?

EM: A lot of strange things. Seems to wander around at night. I don’t think it’s sleepwalking but it’s something under trance.

HH: Is he aware of this strangeness?

EM: No.

HH: Is he consciously doing any of this?

EM: No. Not in his consciousness, but it’s like a trance – when it takes over it’s deadly.

HH: What does he do under the influence of this entity?

HH: How many people are involved in this?

EM: I think it’s down the years quite a few. But recently…I don’t know. I got hooked up with this particular Indian and this man.

HH: What is the result of this Indian’s influence on the dark haired young…or old…you didn’t tell us the age of this man.

EM: Medium age. Not too young.

HH: What is the result of this influence?

EM: He’s unreliable as to what he’s going to do next.

HH: Do you see this happening or is it an imprint from the past?

EM: It looks like happens right up here.

HH: By up here, do you mean upstairs?

EM: Well it begins here anyway.

HH: What does he do again? How many people are involved?

EM: You mean just now? I think maybe a whole family can be involved. It’s very funny.

HH: The whole family?

EM: Several people. I’m berserk.

HH: Then who’s the person that runs berserk?

EM: The man.

HH: What does he do?

EM: Oh, must I go into that?

HH: You must. What does he do?

EM: You see I have to suffer this myself and I was trying not to have to do this.

HH: Yes, but how would you describe it?

EM: I think there is a young fellow here too, but I’m not sure.

HH: What does the young boy do?

EM: He is a victim.

HH: How old a young boy is he?

EM: He seems to be very young, early teens or so, and a girl around that time, too.

HH: The girl in her teens, too?

EM: Four individuals I think – four. Oh, I’m just trying to get around the corners to get away from it.

HH: Now prior to these people coming here, has anybody else done anything like this?

EM: Oh yes, long time…the surroundings here have had funny things happening to them. Because this house has somebody early – not this house but another – early people digging here. It was like a farm or something and digging here they have come onto this skull and that starts the whole bit.

HH: What, another house on this spot?

EM: Not on this spot but they were digging on this spot. They built this house later – much, much, much later.

HH: There were people here before?

EM: Yes.

HH: Before this house was built? They were living on this spot?

EM: This land. Yes.

HH: What were they doing here?

EM: Farm.

HH: So there must have been a farmhouse.

EM: Not right on this spot. They were digging on this spot and I think it was a young boy who dug and found that and made a toy out of this skull and the Indian never forgot it. Now he can’t touch everybody if they are not vulnerable. But that boy was vulnerable, too. And he was chopped up.

HH: Now the boy who did it, was he also a victim of this?

EM: Yes, he was.

HH: Do you sense him around here now?

EM: Yes.

HH: Do you sense any other people who were the result of all this in this place?

EM: It’s been a long history, and anybody who is psychic – they are a victim. If you are not with this type of thing that makes you psychic the chemistry is not vulnerable – you get by. You may not have such good luck. This has to be laid – this poor Indian who has his skull – he should be laid. He’s walking around.

HH: He’s still here?

EM: Yes. That has to be latter 1700s – maybe early 1800s.

HH: Do you sense this Indian present now as you speak?

EM: With the feathers?

HH: Yes.

EM: I don’t sense him in this room. They are showing him to me and he is around here and has been up through the house…but he is not the one who perpetrates…he just orders.

HH: Who is the one who is responsible for what has happened here?

EM: That took over the individual in the house?

HH: Yes.

EM: That one with the under-slung jaw. He looks like an Indian much later than that other Indian, but he is buried under there.

HH: Do you sense him close enough to talk to him?

EM: Well, he doesn’t speak English. Albert says.

HH: Can Albert get through to him?

EM: He’s getting the Indians to get through to him.

HH: Ask Albert that the house be cleansed of this for future reference.

EM: He says with Lavangatong, with White Plume and the White Bull things can be straightened out – nothing in the past can be restored.

HH: Well, ask Albert about this man who has taken over here and committed these acts that you have mentioned – whether there is something we should know that would help us.

EM: Who’s going to believe that a psychic force has taken over an individual in order to make them commit such atrocities?

HH: That remains to be seen.

EM: A man can be judged as insane.

HH: But suppose there is some information that can help us. We should try.

EM: The best that we can do is simply say that he was right hand of the fury…of past fury…beyond that. That until these things are separated from their weaving in the web you’ll have to pull it all apart without destroying the web. It’s not so easy.

HH: Does the victim who committed these acts realize that he was taken over?

EM: I do not believe he would know this. No.

HH: Is there anything in his unconscious that might be brought out to help us?

EM: Under hypnosis you may strike the note.

HH: What about the victims? Are they still in the house or have they gone on? I mean the recent victims?

EM: They sometimes do come and wander, and sob.

HH: Are they aware of what really happened?

EM: Those who do return here are not entirely on the other side. But we are taking note of this and we will release them from this house.

HH: Do they blame the one that killed them in any way or are they aware of the circumstances?

EM: They are not yet aware of the circumstances because they are not yet on the other side completely. Violence sometimes takes a long time before the entrance into the other dimension instead of just being in limbo.

HH: Can we help them understand the circumstances?

EM: Well, we’re taking care of that. You can’t get to it.

HH: Is there anything else that needs to be done here?

EM: That is the root of all the evil – we have to dig it up with various individuals.

HH: To your knowledge, was one individual taken over or was more than one taken over here? I mean during that recent situation.

EM: It seems that there could be a second one, but not like the first.

HH: Who is the second one that might also be involved?

EM: It is a younger man.

HH: A younger person, male or female?

EM: Male.

HH: Were any females involved?

EM: Yes. I meant to say the younger one was but that’s hard when you see it sometimes, it’s hard to see whether it’s male or female.

HH: There were two people involved, altogether, who were taken over?

EM: Yes.

HH: One male and one female?

EM: Yes.

HH: Both…of what age?

EM: Mature, but youngish – not old or decrepit.

HH: All right now, is there anything else that we have missed in this account that you can give us?

EM: That is the basic…if we handle this it will bring to you the victim or victims when they did not have to come into this house.

HH: Are they free to go elsewhere if we should make contact with them?

EM: We can bring them.

HH: All right then, would you eventually arrange for such a session with them?

EM: I will do so.

HH: In the meantime would you please help them to free themselves from this house?

EM: That is the reason we are here today.

HH: All right. Thank you very much. Then bring the instrument back to herself.

EM: I feel like somebody has choked me. Albert is saying that one of the individuals will take over. Now that we have given them their freedom they would like to talk, but [not] in this environment.

HH: I understand. I will make an arrangement to speak with them outside this environment.

EM: Albert will ask them if another room is better.

HH: Another room? Downstairs? Upstairs? Do you mean other than this room. The house is all right but in another room? Is that correct?

EM: No, I was just wondering if there was another room that was a little quieter.

HH: All right, we will look for one.

HH: Here – what do you hear in here?

EM: Screaming.

HH: Who’s screaming?

EM: I don’t see right now. I’m just hearing.

HH: This is one of the rooms on the second floor. What did Albert say?

EM: Four people have been killed here. A family.

HH: How were they killed?

EM: I hear pistol shots.

HH: Who is doing the killing?

EM: There is one of the younger men.

HH: Is he doing the killing under the influence of someone else?

EM: Yes, yes, yes.

HH: Who is the other person?

EM: That’s the one with the underslung jaw. They think he’s crazy – the one who did it.

HH: But he’s not crazy?

EM: No, he was taken over.

HH: What else did they make him do?

EM: Oh, cut up everything that’s nasty. Terrible.

HH: Did he do all the killing himself?

EM: Yes.

HH: Did anybody else do any of the killings or was it all him?

EM: All him. Under the influence of this – absolutely under the influence of a ghost.

HH: Is he innocent then?

EM: In his right mind he is innocent. They think he’s crazy. I don’t think he’s quite free either, yet.

HH: You mean they can still get to him if he were in this house?

EM: I think so. Yes.

HH: The ones he killed are free from this house?

EM: They are wandering around. They come here and they scream and go. I’ve been hearing screaming here all the time – so that they can’t talk.

HH: Is Albert going to help them?

EM: Yes he said.

HH: Is there anything else that we should know that would give us proof that this was under the influence of the Indian?

EM: It’s a difficult thing. However, they are so upset about it. As he said before, who is going to believe – who is going to believe? And he’s almost in tears about it.

HH: Is there any incident that happened to this person before the crime took place that would show he was taken over before?

EM: There was irregular behavior.

HH: What did he do that was irregular?

EM: Fall into violent temper at times.

HH: Did he do anything that was contrary to his normal character?

EM: I would say so, he says.

HH: What sort of things?

EM: Cutting up things – and he might have taken it out on pets.

HH: Now people who have lived here before – prior to this particular group of people – did they express anything of this kind?

EM: Not so much. They did, but it was not so much because there wasn’t a catalyst that was as good as this individual was.

HH: And what about the people who came in here afterwards? Recently. Did they experience anything?

EM: I would say that they must have felt the depression and heard screams and sounds.

HH: Would anybody moving in here still feel the same things?

EM: Yes, if they were a catalyst, yes. It would be a depressive house under all circumstances. Terribly depressive. Unless the Indians are put to rest, and that’s what Albert wants to do – to save the house.

HH: All right. That we can do elsewhere. Or do we do this here?

EM: No, it can be done elsewhere.

HH: All right. Then ask Albert to protect this house in the meantime to free the ones who were murdered here and we will meet again.

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